From what I can gather Theravedan Buddhism predates Zen Buddhism. In fact the zen patriarchs were men who rebelled against the Theravedan traditions. Theravedans elavate the teacher, putting him on a dias above the students. The original zen masters refused the dias, sat on the floor with everyone else, and basically thumbed their noses at any form of "precious tradition" which had grown up within Buddhism.
I am way more comfortable within the zen school. Flagrant disregard of the norms. Although even the Zen schools are open to being dogmatised by people who need dogmas. I guess there will always be those who need others to direct them. I can't think of anything worse! That's why I stopped practicing Christainity, you have to leave everything up to Jesus! I'm almost sure that is not what he intended while he was teaching. He was teaching empowerment, but I guess due to the Jewish conditioning there is still the overtone of evil human/omnipotent God - and never the twain shall meet.
But that's a whole other story, and I definately don't want to get into any apologist debates, so I'll leave it right there.
Just want to say that flagrant disregard for the norms does not equal lack of respect for discipline. Any serious practice needs discipline, thrives on it. In fact when you are disregarding the norm, discipline is even more essential to practice, because you become fully responsible for your own progress.
My husband's Buddhist name is 'Fa Chao' which means 'trancending the Darmha'. I think that about sums it up.
Thank God for Zen ;)
I am way more comfortable within the zen school. Flagrant disregard of the norms. Although even the Zen schools are open to being dogmatised by people who need dogmas. I guess there will always be those who need others to direct them. I can't think of anything worse! That's why I stopped practicing Christainity, you have to leave everything up to Jesus! I'm almost sure that is not what he intended while he was teaching. He was teaching empowerment, but I guess due to the Jewish conditioning there is still the overtone of evil human/omnipotent God - and never the twain shall meet.
But that's a whole other story, and I definately don't want to get into any apologist debates, so I'll leave it right there.
Just want to say that flagrant disregard for the norms does not equal lack of respect for discipline. Any serious practice needs discipline, thrives on it. In fact when you are disregarding the norm, discipline is even more essential to practice, because you become fully responsible for your own progress.
My husband's Buddhist name is 'Fa Chao' which means 'trancending the Darmha'. I think that about sums it up.
Thank God for Zen ;)
posted by Gaelin at 9:18 AM
7 Comments:
Gaelin, I think you''re absolutely right.
Bodhidarma himself was a bit of a rebel, who left India in disgust after one of the major conferences, where the monks argued over which vessel was the true Dharma.
May I recommend "Old Path, White Clouds" by Thich Nhat Hanh? It's the story of the life and original teachings of the historical Buddha, as presently believed within the Mahayana/Zen tradition. I found that the original Dharma as taught by Siddhartha Gautama himself in the Deer Park at Issapataya (according to this book) is very close to what I've been learning from modern sources within the Zen/Ch'an lineage.
My Dharma teacher says that Therevada developed from a different and less-complete set of teachings than did Mahayana. She also points out that Therevada, in general, does not allow women to be monastics (which we saw in person in Thailand).
Anyway, in gassho-
~scruff
I will look out for "Old Path, White Clouds", thanks.
Any school that doesn't encourage gender equality doesn't get my vote!
But that said, the Vipassana technique produces results, and has deepened my practice.
And I, personally, thank GOD that you are BACK!!!! Do you even know how much I missed you and all your enlightenment???? I don't even know if that's a word, but hey..whatever...lol..yayyyy!!!
Looking forward to more thoughts from you and your zenism...again, don't know if thats a word, but they are my words, and Im gonna use them...take care girl, and welcome back...I hope your enjoying your retreat....
Missed ya
:)Just me
Hi Kirsten :) back from the retreat, alive and kicking!
Some things never change, good to see you're still around :)
(in response to your question on a previous comment) LOL - I'm not a teacher, just some guy from Texas. I began seeking the dharma right after the tsunami, the only time in my life when I felt I needed refuge or I wasn't going to get through. Desperate times and all that.
Like you said, thank God for zazen!
Scruff, I really have to take issue with your dharma teacher's suggestion that Therevada developed from "less complete" teachings than the Mahayana. There's really no arguing the point that Mahayana is a development of Therevada. Both schools descend from a common source, and the split occurred over several centuries long before the birth of Bodhidharma. Ch'an is a reform movement within Mahayana.
As for the question of female monasticism, it has ebbed and flowed in both traditions over the centuries. It was really quite vital in the Therevada until the 10th century, when it the Bhikkhuni Sangha declined as the result of civil war and social upheaval. Once the lineage was extinguished, it required outside ordination to reestablish.
Despite the difficulties of lineage and local cultural bias, female monastic orders have been replanted through all the traditional Therevada nations. It is also growing also in the West. I happened to reference such a community on PaperFrog not long ago:
http://paperfrog.com/blog/archives/000568.php
Thanks for the info, both schools have valid practises to offer, and both teach the dharma.
'Fingers pointing at the moon'is a good analogy in this instance.
Do you have any opinion on SNGoenka's approach to vipassana practice?
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